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Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS |
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Wlad писал(а): Неудачная шутка. Шварц целое направление парадигм о том, "как положено", в головёшках своего и последующих поколений втулил, а вы - так по авторитету гуманитарной образованщины 50-90-х! Эм... Вообще-то я имел ввиду книгу "Компиляторы: принципы, технологии и инструменты" Ахо и Ульмана, именуемую в простонародии "Книгой дракона": https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%8B:_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BF%D1%8B,_%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%85%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%B8_%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%8BНи в коем случае не хотел никого обидеть, но если все-таки обидел, покорнейше прошу пардона...
[quote="Wlad"]Неудачная шутка. Шварц целое направление парадигм о том, "как положено", в головёшках своего и последующих поколений втулил, а вы - так по авторитету гуманитарной образованщины 50-90-х![/quote] Эм... Вообще-то я имел ввиду книгу "Компиляторы: принципы, технологии и инструменты" Ахо и Ульмана, именуемую в простонародии "Книгой дракона": [url]https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%8B:_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BF%D1%8B,_%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%85%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%B8_%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%8B[/url] Ни в коем случае не хотел никого обидеть, но если все-таки обидел, покорнейше прошу пардона... :shuffle;
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Добавлено: Вт июн 30, 2020 15:24 |
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Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS |
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Total Vacuum писал(а): Hishnik писал(а): борьба с драконом Ах-ха-ха... Почему-то сразу возникла ассоциация с "Книгой дракона" Ахо и Ульмана... Неудачная шутка. Шварц целое направление парадигм о том, "как положено", в головёшках своего и последующих поколений втулил, а вы - так по авторитету гуманитарной образованщины 50-90-х!
[quote="Total Vacuum"][quote="Hishnik"]борьба с драконом[/quote] Ах-ха-ха... :)) Почему-то сразу возникла ассоциация с "Книгой дракона" Ахо и Ульмана... :D[/quote] Неудачная шутка. Шварц целое направление парадигм о том, "как положено", в головёшках своего и последующих поколений втулил, а вы - так по авторитету гуманитарной образованщины 50-90-х!
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Добавлено: Чт июн 25, 2020 18:19 |
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Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS |
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Hishnik писал(а): борьба с драконом Ах-ха-ха... Почему-то сразу возникла ассоциация с "Книгой дракона" Ахо и Ульмана...
[quote="Hishnik"]борьба с драконом[/quote] Ах-ха-ха... :)) Почему-то сразу возникла ассоциация с "Книгой дракона" Ахо и Ульмана... :D
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Добавлено: Чт июн 18, 2020 16:15 |
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Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS |
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Так в 1984-м они там были молодые и активные, хотели себе кусок пирога. Теперь он у них есть, и выяснилось, что борьба с комитетами была как борьба с драконом - победитель сам становится драконом Особенность менталитета - раб не хочет стать свободным, раб хочет стать хозяином и иметь своих рабов.
Так в 1984-м они там были молодые и активные, хотели себе кусок пирога. Теперь он у них есть, и выяснилось, что борьба с комитетами была как борьба с драконом - победитель сам становится драконом :) Особенность менталитета - раб не хочет стать свободным, раб хочет стать хозяином и иметь своих рабов.
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Добавлено: Чт июн 18, 2020 14:06 |
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Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS |
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Hishnik писал(а): Кто сказал "двойные стандарты"? Так это Броди писал аж в 1984, вряд ли тогда была такая же ситуация со стандартизацией языка, как сейчас. Немного иронично, что фразу я скопировал из экземпляра книги, выложенного на сайте Forth, Inc.
[quote="Hishnik"]Кто сказал "двойные стандарты"? :)[/quote] Так это Броди писал аж в 1984, вряд ли тогда была такая же ситуация со стандартизацией языка, как сейчас. Немного иронично, что фразу я скопировал из экземпляра книги, выложенного на сайте Forth, Inc.
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Добавлено: Чт июн 18, 2020 13:38 |
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Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS |
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zma писал(а): Had Forth been designed by committee, we would not love it so. Кто сказал "двойные стандарты"?
[quote="zma"]Had Forth been designed by committee, we would not love it so.[/quote] Кто сказал "двойные стандарты"? :)
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Добавлено: Чт июн 18, 2020 13:28 |
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Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS |
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Leo Brodie "Thinking Forth" Цитата: Forth was created and refined over many years by people who used it as a means to an end. At that time, it was neither reasonable nor possible to impose naming standards on a tool that was still growing and evolving. Had Forth been designed by committee, we would not love it so. Не флейма ради, а забавы для.
Leo Brodie "Thinking Forth" [quote]Forth was created and refined over many years by people who used it as a means to an end. At that time, it was neither reasonable nor possible to impose naming standards on a tool that was still growing and evolving. [b]Had Forth been designed by committee, we would not love it so.[/b][/quote] Не флейма ради, а забавы для.
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Добавлено: Чт июн 18, 2020 12:00 |
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Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS |
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HughAguilar писал(а): as well as a lot of ambiguities. The ambiguities were the result of political concessions. The ASN Forth standart is written in such style, so it is practically impossible to use it in educational process. A students simply will not understand all those "initiation/execution/interpretation/run-time semantics which can be appended/extended/replaced" and so on. You can understand them only if you are already "in Forth". >Forth-200x, which is just a great pile of manure that grows bigger every year without any apparent strategy or goal... E.Rather mentioned there : >The early efforts at standards (1977, 1978) barely scratched the surface Hugh, do you have that early standards in any form ? Can I look on them ? Just to imagine and feel a river of time. I implemented (just to taste it) a 32 bit versions of Forth-79 and FIG and found a couple of strange places in them and want to compare them to something more earlier. My attempts to find -77 and -78 standards in Internet were unsuccessful.
[quote="HughAguilar"]as well as a lot of ambiguities. The ambiguities were the result of political concessions.[/quote]The ASN Forth standart is written in such style, so it is practically impossible to use it in educational process. A students simply will not understand all those "initiation/execution/interpretation/run-time semantics which can be appended/extended/replaced" and so on. You can understand them only if you are already "in Forth".
>Forth-200x, which is just a great pile of manure that grows bigger every year without any apparent strategy or goal... :))
E.Rather mentioned there : >The early efforts at standards (1977, 1978) barely scratched the surface Hugh, do you have that early standards in any form ? Can I look on them ? Just to imagine and feel a river of time. I implemented (just to taste it) a 32 bit versions of Forth-79 and FIG and found a couple of strange places in them and want to compare them to something more earlier. My attempts to find -77 and -78 standards in Internet were unsuccessful.
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Добавлено: Ср янв 11, 2017 14:03 |
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Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS |
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mOleg писал(а): But them spent his money, time of life and effort for this work. "This is our 10 $, where is our Cadillac?"
[quote="mOleg"]But them spent his money, time of life and effort for this work. [/quote] "This is our 10 $, where is our Cadillac?" :)
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Добавлено: Пн янв 02, 2017 18:45 |
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Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS |
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HughAguilar писал(а): I know exactly why it happened! The world is full of people who want to be followers. They just look for some big leader, and they become the big leader's followers. But them spent his money, time of life and effort for this work. To criticize is always easier than doing something.
[quote="HughAguilar"]I know exactly why it happened! The world is full of people who want to be followers. They just look for some big leader, and they become the big leader's followers. [/quote] But them spent his money, time of life and effort for this work. To criticize is always easier than doing something.
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Добавлено: Пн янв 02, 2017 10:25 |
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Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS |
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HughAguilar писал(а): This is why I'm talking to Russians now --- Elizabeth Rather's followers are becoming overly emotional --- hopefully Russians are calmer and less emotional... We are ready to discuss.. in general Of course, there are many peoples everywhere, who are not too calm and searching for a kind of conflict just to show their superiority. I want to provide an ability to discuss Forth problems to anyone who wants it. This does not include pure programming questions, but electronics, production, economics, management, standartization, psychology and other related things too. Rather and her followers are welcomed too.. if they want. But they are definitely not gurus for me A major difference for Russia is a free high education and another approach to it. Many forhters here are engineers/programmers with high education (and scientific degrees). Students learn more theoretical basics than skills as for USA/Europe, and creativity means more than commercial success. So it looks agressive for Russians than someone told 'use my product because I am successful on the market'. This looks like 'you are fool and non-creative and only way for you is to learn how to use our product'. This is just a challenge
[quote="HughAguilar"]This is why I'm talking to Russians now --- Elizabeth Rather's followers are becoming overly emotional --- hopefully Russians are calmer and less emotional...[/quote] We are ready to discuss.. in general :) Of course, there are many peoples everywhere, who are not too calm and searching for a kind of conflict just to show their superiority. I want to provide an ability to discuss Forth problems to anyone who wants it. This does not include pure programming questions, but electronics, production, economics, management, standartization, psychology and other related things too. Rather and her followers are welcomed too.. if they want. But they are definitely not gurus for me :)
A major difference for Russia is a free high education and another approach to it. Many forhters here are engineers/programmers with high education (and scientific degrees). Students learn more theoretical basics than skills as for USA/Europe, and creativity means more than commercial success. So it looks agressive for Russians than someone told 'use my product because I am successful on the market'. This looks like 'you are fool and non-creative and only way for you is to learn how to use our product'. This is just a challenge :)
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Добавлено: Вс янв 01, 2017 20:29 |
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Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS |
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mOleg писал(а): Цитата: I'm not sure why Oleg point to it Гм, тогда иначе: "кто платит, тот и заказывает музыку". This is a good proverb --- it translates directly into an English proverb. I am offended that the ANS-Forth committee declared themselves to be the leaders of the Forth community, and declared Forth programmers such as myself to be their followers. In 1994 they released ANS-Forth and it had never been tested. There was no reference compile. There were major bugs, such as the parameters in LOCALS| being backwards, as well as a lot of ambiguities. The ambiguities were the result of political concessions. Two committee members had contradictory Forth systems and each demands that their Forth system will be ANS-Forth compliant, so Elizabeth Rather says: "Fine! You are both ANS-Forth compliant!" There was no ANS-Forth compiler written until 1997, which was SwiftForth, and it was too bug-ridden to be usable --- it wasn't until version-3 that the major bugs got removed (for example: (LOCAL) would crash SwiftForth when it was used). By comparison, in 1994/1995 I wrote MFX at Testra for their MiniForth processor. This was used to compile their motion-control program. The MiniForth system was faster than the competitor's MC68000 system, and less expensive (the MiniForth was built on a Lattice isp1048 PLD and an 8032 for support). MFX continues to be used today (the MiniForth has been upgraded to an FPGA and the name changed to RACE, but MFX still works for it). So, please explain to me why I'm supposed to be the obedient follower and Elizabeth Rather is supposed to be the great leader. I write Forth code that works --- she is a salesperson --- WTF??? mOleg писал(а): Не всегда люди, а тем более группы людей поступают рационально, увы. Собственно, мне до сих пор не понятно, почему вообще случился этот самый стандарт. I know exactly why it happened! The world is full of people who want to be followers. They just look for some big leader, and they become the big leader's followers. Elizabeth Rather has surrounded herself with sycophants. Very few of them are capable of programming in Forth. Mostly, they just enjoy declaring themselves to be big experts on the internet, and they attack people such as myself who do program in Forth. In this thread you can read one of Elizabeth Rather's sycophants making a death threat against me: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... 2KNs8p4J6YThis is the death threat: On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 8:46:15 AM UTC-7, Julian Fondren wrote: > The only thing Hugh has added to clf in his entire time here is an > awareness that CREATE ... DOES> with constant data is less optimal > than could be. Possibly some people have also benefited by having > been encouraged to get real Usenet clients or subscriptions--so as to > avoid him. All of his other contributions have been negative. We are > actually stupider because of him--people have stopped coming by, that > brightened things up; people who know better don't bother voicing > response #1929 to the same iterated complaint from Hugh that was > stupid and baseless the first time it provoked a response. > > And of course, instead of Forth discussion, you get the occasional > admissions like mine that moderators can be nice to have, that the > problems they exhibit shouldn't be solved by doing away with them. > At one point I would've defended to the death Hugh's right to > fantasize grossly about people going to hell, as the saying goes, and > now I would just shrug and say he had it coming were jack-booted > thugs to black-bag him and remove him from society. This is why I'm talking to Russians now --- Elizabeth Rather's followers are becoming overly emotional --- hopefully Russians are calmer and less emotional...
[quote="mOleg"][quote] I'm not sure why Oleg point to it[/quote] Гм, тогда иначе: "кто платит, тот и заказывает музыку".[/quote] This is a good proverb --- it translates directly into an English proverb.
I am offended that the ANS-Forth committee declared themselves to be the leaders of the Forth community, and declared Forth programmers such as myself to be their followers.
In 1994 they released ANS-Forth and it had never been tested. There was no reference compile. There were major bugs, such as the parameters in LOCALS| being backwards, as well as a lot of ambiguities. The ambiguities were the result of political concessions. Two committee members had contradictory Forth systems and each demands that their Forth system will be ANS-Forth compliant, so Elizabeth Rather says: "Fine! You are both ANS-Forth compliant!" There was no ANS-Forth compiler written until 1997, which was SwiftForth, and it was too bug-ridden to be usable --- it wasn't until version-3 that the major bugs got removed (for example: (LOCAL) would crash SwiftForth when it was used).
By comparison, in 1994/1995 I wrote MFX at Testra for their MiniForth processor. This was used to compile their motion-control program. The MiniForth system was faster than the competitor's MC68000 system, and less expensive (the MiniForth was built on a Lattice isp1048 PLD and an 8032 for support). MFX continues to be used today (the MiniForth has been upgraded to an FPGA and the name changed to RACE, but MFX still works for it).
So, please explain to me why I'm supposed to be the obedient follower and Elizabeth Rather is supposed to be the great leader. I write Forth code that works --- she is a salesperson --- WTF???
[quote="mOleg"]Не всегда люди, а тем более группы людей поступают рационально, увы. Собственно, мне до сих пор не понятно, почему вообще случился этот самый стандарт.[/quote] I know exactly why it happened! The world is full of people who want to be followers. They just look for some big leader, and they become the big leader's followers.
Elizabeth Rather has surrounded herself with sycophants. Very few of them are capable of programming in Forth. Mostly, they just enjoy declaring themselves to be big experts on the internet, and they attack people such as myself who do program in Forth.
In this thread you can read one of Elizabeth Rather's sycophants making a death threat against me: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.forth/92KNs8p4J6Y This is the death threat: On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 8:46:15 AM UTC-7, Julian Fondren wrote: > The only thing Hugh has added to clf in his entire time here is an > awareness that CREATE ... DOES> with constant data is less optimal > than could be. Possibly some people have also benefited by having > been encouraged to get real Usenet clients or subscriptions--so as to > avoid him. All of his other contributions have been negative. We are > actually stupider because of him--people have stopped coming by, that > brightened things up; people who know better don't bother voicing > response #1929 to the same iterated complaint from Hugh that was > stupid and baseless the first time it provoked a response. > > And of course, instead of Forth discussion, you get the occasional > admissions like mine that moderators can be nice to have, that the > problems they exhibit shouldn't be solved by doing away with them. > At one point I would've defended to the death Hugh's right to > fantasize grossly about people going to hell, as the saying goes, and > now I would just shrug and say he had it coming were jack-booted > thugs to black-bag him and remove him from society.
This is why I'm talking to Russians now --- Elizabeth Rather's followers are becoming overly emotional --- hopefully Russians are calmer and less emotional...
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Добавлено: Вс янв 01, 2017 09:23 |
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Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS |
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mOleg писал(а): Собственно, мне до сих пор не понятно, почему вообще случился этот самый стандарт. Кто то выступил с инициативой, а кто то это одобрил и закрутилось P.S. Типа из серии Forth Haiku и GL XT16 - Karsten Schmidt, Low fat computing и может появиттся, что то типа ForthGL Сколько уже подобных проектов?
[quote="mOleg"]Собственно, мне до сих пор не понятно, почему вообще случился этот самый стандарт.[/quote] Кто то выступил с инициативой, а кто то это одобрил и закрутилось :)
P.S. Типа из серии Forth Haiku и GL [url=https://juxt.pro/blog/posts/XT16-karsten-schmidt.html]XT16 - Karsten Schmidt, Low fat computing[/url] и может появиттся, что то типа ForthGL :) Сколько уже подобных проектов?
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Добавлено: Пн дек 26, 2016 20:05 |
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Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS |
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Цитата: I'm not sure why Oleg point to it Гм, тогда иначе: "кто платит, тот и заказывает музыку". Не всегда люди, а тем более группы людей поступают рационально, увы. Собственно, мне до сих пор не понятно, почему вообще случился этот самый стандарт. Цитата: К слову, пытаюсь вспомнить, кого хоть раз "накормил" комитет. Наоборот: Вопрос в том, кто кормил комитет?
[quote] I'm not sure why Oleg point to it[/quote] Гм, тогда иначе: "кто платит, тот и заказывает музыку". Не всегда люди, а тем более группы людей поступают рационально, увы. Собственно, мне до сих пор не понятно, почему вообще случился этот самый стандарт.
[quote]К слову, пытаюсь вспомнить, кого хоть раз "накормил" комитет.[/quote] Наоборот: Вопрос в том, кто кормил комитет?
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Добавлено: Пн дек 26, 2016 18:56 |
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Re: Elizabeth Rather о стандарте ANS |
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HughAguilar писал(а): What does your proverb about feeding the dancing girl mean? It is a well-known joke. A man invites girl to dance while she is in restaurant with another man. Her boyfriend (rich and mature enough) answers "who fed a girl, will dance her". Grammatically, phrase built with an allusion to insert "to have a sex with" instead of "dance". I'm not sure why Oleg point to it, but this othen used like "pay before tell us what to do".
[quote="HughAguilar"]What does your proverb about feeding the dancing girl mean?[/quote] It is a well-known joke. A man invites girl to dance while she is in restaurant with another man. Her boyfriend (rich and mature enough) answers "who fed a girl, will dance her". Grammatically, phrase built with an allusion to insert "to have a sex with" instead of "dance". I'm not sure why Oleg point to it, but this othen used like "pay before tell us what to do".
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Добавлено: Пт дек 23, 2016 01:02 |
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